Book Me In, Baby
My well-meaning friend suggested a guy to me one day. A guy that her husband had been in yeshiva with a couple years back. They said he was tall, well built and funny. They really did.
They weren’t sure exactly how his personality had panned out in the past few years but from what they could recall he was a nice, normal, sociable guy and that he was definitely the one to break my cycle of mental asylum escapees. No chance of him being deranged, delusional, obsessive or perverse. I was almost excited.
They mentioned something also, about him volunteering for army service occasionally. For the good of the country. My parents will be pleased, I thought.. They’re pretty patriotic themselves and it’s always been a point of contention that I weaselled my way out of the army – Look! Now I have a husband who did it instead of me! Also now we wont have to go through the whole “Why-don’t-religious-people-go-to-the-army” conversation.
Other than that, I didnt really pay much attention.
I’m used to men in uniform.
Shower. Makeup. Clothes. Bus ride. Coffeeshop.
He was, as promised, very tall, and very very good looking. I began to feel better already. I said hi, we sat down. His voice was not high-pitched. In fact, he sounded kind of like a news broadcaster, you know – that really really manly voice, that comes after thousands of cigarettes and double whiskies.
We got to talking. He, surprisingly, was intelligent. I was having trouble putting together coherent sentences. I was just so GRATEFUL that finally someone had sent me this blessing. This gift.
I asked him how he got to volunteering for army service after serving three years already – I mean its unusual even for secular Israelis, with the religious ones its practically unheard of. I was curious.
He told me that he was planning to get out of it, but when he got to the meeting and explained to them that he feels he cant contribute any more to army service, that he is now religious and is leading a new life, they began convincing him how important a role each soldier in the army plays, and how he specifically fits the bill completely and is a perfect military candidate… Well all that started getting to his head and he began thinking that Yeah, he really was army material after all.
So what happened next, I asked him.
So I say to the guy – Book me in, baby.
Tore up his rejection letters and doctors certificates right then and there (very dramatic stuff) and thats how he landed up in the job.
So. We continued talking.
That “Book me in, baby” really stuck in my head though.
Book me in too.
We spent a fabulous next couple of hours. It was so strange actually wanting to stay, not thinking of excuses to LEAVE.
A truly different experience. He was funny, and smart, and very interesting. He loved pizza, and really loved Guinness, and he was passing the Manly Test with flying colours.
Okay. So this is the funny part.
The waitress comes over to give us the bill. She was blonde (peroxided), tanned (fake) and was wearing not so much a skirt as a napkin. Lots of eyeliner and lipstick, fake clangy jewellery and all sorts of nose rings and belly rings and that really cheap looking stuff.
Look, I wont go into details. But you get the picture.
All of a sudden she notices us, or shall I say him, and shrieks “Oh my Gd is it really you?! How’ve you BEEN? How are things GOING? Where WERE you yesterday?!”
She was really laying it on thick, and I barely had time to comprehend what was going on when she leaned over, put her arm around him and kissed him on the cheek.
It all happened very quickly. I had a split-second to gauge reactions and try to analyse the extent of the damage. Maybe he didnt know her, and she was just a delusional nutcase preying on an innocent frum guy. Maybe she was his sister.
But it was not to be.
In his eyes I saw the terror, the embarrassment, and the memorable “I would rather be anywhere rather than here” look, which all added up to the fact that he did know her, that he was in fact kissing girls on a daily basis, that this was indeed an awkward moment for him, and that he really wished that he was anywhere but here at the moment.
Now I am not an angry person. I really would call myself restrained. I might be given to bursts of irritation occasionally but that is really as far as it goes. So I was calm. On the outside. A little flustered in my head.
Your girlfriend? I asked him. Casually.
Don’t you think you’re overdoing it just a little?
No no, I replied. If ANYONE here is overdoing things, its clearly you. I mean if there is ANY overdoing being done here, at all, it is being done by YOU.
I’m sorry, he said to me. I’m sorry you had to see that.
Aha, I said. Sorry I had to see that.
Sorry that it HAPPENED? I thought he was a Shomer Negia. Interesting.
Evidently, he wasnt.
Evidently, this was a regular occurrence in his daily life, and it was just a little uncomfortable that his frum friend had to witness it.
I really cant tell you how disappointed I was. I mean, we were SO CLOSE to having a normal date. He was paying the bill, for Gd’s sake. Why couldnt he have held out for ten more minutes?
Uniforms ruin things. Blonde girls really, really ruin things.
But men. Men just screw things up completely.
January 16th, 2003 03:19
I can’t believe I’m the first to comment, COOL! đ
Anyhow, here I am sitting in my room, reading your story and smiling to myself, thinking “wow sounds like she had a great date, I wonder what happened”… and then I get to the end… đ oh well, one of these days you’ll have another great date that will actually end well, and then MARRY HIM!!!!
January 16th, 2003 05:48
I liked that last line.
January 16th, 2003 07:44
gah. i’m trying to make scenarios in my head to explain it away so you can see him again. but they just won’t come.
silly boy to spend time with such females and lose out on you.
January 16th, 2003 10:49
I don’t know…I have a weird feeling this guy wasn’t so bad. His behavior is very very iffy and very disturbing. Especially if he’s into the bimbo look (ech how tacky). But I think you should let him explain.
January 16th, 2003 11:50
He did explain… that he goes out, with secular girls, and hangs out and has some fun with them. Please Shimra, *what* is so wrong about that??
January 16th, 2003 16:39
Unfortunately I’ve seen this phenomenon: Frum guys who date the shidduch way but have the slut on the side to use to satisfy physical pleasures. It’s shocking sometimes, because these people are normal, frum, even yeshivishe guys!!!! I am not that shocked to hear your story! It’s sad!
January 16th, 2003 16:44
just wanted to say hallo. love u.
January 17th, 2003 00:22
Oh.
January 17th, 2003 00:54
Ok, I agree that this guy was WAAY out of line or whatever you want to call it. what most threw me was Mindy’s comment that this is common!?!!?
What? I mean maybe I’m here in Israel in my own sheltered corner but hey, it seems (at least how mindy describes it) to be a bit much.
As a “normal, frum, even yeshivishe” guy I feel betrayed if this is true… Hmm.. hope not.. L”H anyway. (but then again this whole site is đ
Anyone ever hear the term “Ortho-trash”?
Stay sane/YS
January 17th, 2003 05:48
Well it is common… but I think the S word is a little extreme… Some responsibility must be put on the boys..Being that Ive taken on the role of being “one of the guys” I hear and see a fair share more than I ever want to… but its all such rubbish… I was having a “conversation” with a husband of a friend of mine on tzniut (they run aish together) and he was saying about how “men are animals”, “dont put a stumbling block” etc etc.. dont misunderstand me..I am ffb and used to hearing it.. but it is getting so OLD. They do what they want when they want however they want to do it.. nothing to do with animal instinct, just lack of control and discipline. Ive met one or two gems of a boy to know that there exists out there “good boys” who don’t stray when they think ppl dont know. But the good news is (and this depends which type of girl you are) it doesnt matter what trouble these boys get into with the “bad””girls they always marry the “good” girls in the end.
What disturbs me is not that hes touching a girl or whatever its that he said I’m sorry you had to see that”” keilu if you don’t know about it then its as if it isnt happening.. WHat kind of attitude is that?
I dont know.. Shomer Negiyah and Tzniut is something in most frum ppl from birth have thier highs and low.. I don’t think its a breaking point unless hes going a lot further thank just kissing her on her cheeck.. its a point for compromise..I may be a little jaded by the situation by now but unless a boy has led a really sheltered life its unlikely you will meet one who hasnt gone through this stage at some point.. and I am not trying to through your baal teshuva-ness in your face but you also come from a situation where you were not religious your whole life which means that you have to be a little tolerant I think and understanding.. it doesnt mean you have to marry the boy or even go out on a second date but you should think through it more calmly..
P.S. was this cafe hillel by any chance.. because boy is there this waitress there..
k just kididng.. (kind of – there is a story behind that partic waitress)..SHABBAT SHALOM LECUUUUUUUUUUUUULLLLLLLLAMmmmmmmm……….
January 17th, 2003 08:16
Mindy, (you post on OnlySimchas a lot, right?) you are totally correct. Maybe this is more a NY thing. I’m pretty modern but definitely not a “slut”.
But yeshivish guys have gotten the idea that I am simply because I wear short sleeves and pants.
I swear, one time I was at the shiva of Rav Pam zt”l (it’s right by my apt. they don’t know me I’m not that chashuv:))I’m leaving, going back to my apt. There’s this bochur around 20 yrs old, the black and white and all, also coming out of the Pams house. He asked me for the time, which I told him. Then he asks me if I live alone. I said yeah, why? Then he’s like, “Wanna fool around?”
If a bochur can think about sex right after going to the shiva of Rav Pam we’re seriously going to hell in a handbasket.
January 17th, 2003 08:46
chorus from a new parody (for all you dont get it, you should read the blog)
this entry inspired
Good Boy, Good Girl,
don’t look ’em in the eye
don’t touch, don’t feel,
or you’ll be very frie
have a lot more, will probably post it to the blog when I’m finished with it. It’s not that great, but it’s fun to parody my favorite songs.
January 17th, 2003 11:36
U somehow managed to trigger me to say something serious.
a. There always are âmisbehavingâ boys and girls.
b. Itâs not that common. (what is this âthatâ exactly?).
c. Itâs culture dependant. Once, after making the most naĂŻve remark about what I think frums do (it was actually about what they donât do), I got a lecture that NY is totally different and there are different standardsâŚ
d. Iâve heard some American stories about certain âdecentâ offers that were made even in the first date. (Shimra, r u sure âfooling aroundâ doesnât mean âwanna play chess?â. Yes, shiva makes u think about the circle of life. Death, babies⌠âfooling aroundâ is an important part of this circle.).
e. As one said before â the irritating thing is the âsorry u had to see thatâ comment.
f. U r not to judge other ppl moralities.
Shimra, wanna fool around if I get to NY? (donât get all nervous I canât make it in the next coming months).
January 17th, 2003 12:11
Look, Israel is extremely divided to “Very Frum” people and “Very Secular” people. (Snark be quiet).
When I was secular – then I was *very* secular. When I became frum – I simply became as frum as I knew I should be, and that means *everything*. (Shut Up Snark)
The whole “Chilling-with-girls-on-Ben-Yehuda” style is new here, it was brought over mostly by Americans, its a foreign style to live something we consider to be so in the middle. Or is it just me.
Anyway,
I dont have the privilege to have my “highs and lows” about the shomer negia bit. Its not an option for me. Theres a difference between doing something because you feel weak at the moment, and for making it legitimate and even right.
I havent touched a boy other than my precious brothers, for, lets see… hmmm, 6.5 years (heaven help meeeeeeeeeeee) and its not because I’m strong, its because its right. And I expect the same realisation from the guy I’ll marry, if ever.
January 17th, 2003 12:46
er… that came out rather harsh now that I’m reading it again. It was morning and I hadnt had my coffee just yet. I’ll learn for the future to wait till after two cups.
January 17th, 2003 19:10
If one consiously does things he’s not supposed to do (i.e. not just spur of the moment temptation, but goes into something knowing that it could happen) one really has to question if that person is frum.
Yes, he might daven 3 times a day, learn in yeshiva or whatever else might put him in the “frum” classification, but if one is concsiously willing to do things that he supposdly believes is “wrong” than one has to question if what he does do, is because he feels its right, or just because its what everyone else does. Being frum means caring about one’s frumkeit, not doing things becaue that’s how you were raise/only know/what everyone else does. If that is why one is “frum”, what happens when that person ends up in a place where there are not a lot of (if any) frum jews. See people who came to america from Europe 100+ years ago.
At the end of the day, one is frum or not frum. Some of it depends on the community one lives in. for example, I personally don’t believe if a girl learns gemara it makes her not frum, but then again, she probably shouldn’t be living in a community where that’s not accepted, when one wants to be part of a community, one really has to accept that communities standards.
The question I deal with, is what happens when one wants to be frum, doesn’t do anything he shouldn’t do, but for some reason there’s a block preventing him from doing everything he should do. well, this is something I guess I have to figure out for myself.
I don’t know exactly what She meant by her first comment (gap b/w very secular and frum and her switching sides). But this is actually the point that really annoys me about Israel (well, I’m also annoyed by the transilterations like Petach Tiqwa one sees on signs, but that’s somewhat insignificant) this entire gap b/w the religious (at least on the chareidi side) and the chilonim. There’s such a wide gap, b/w chilonim, dati’im and chareidim, that they each form their own seperate sub groups. The only problem is, my haskafa is not like any of theirs.
When I’m around my dati cousins my own age I feel somewhat uncomfortable because of they don’t seem to care much about certain things (yichud is something that stands out in my mind), while on the chareidi side, they wouldn’t like a lot of what I do (sports, secular studies) as well as haskafic points (as mentioned above). As I also mentioned above, one really has to live in a community whose standards one is willing to accept, but as it appears, I’m not sure there’s any community in Israel that I’d feel comfortable about. A rebbe of mine when I was in Israel made a similar comment, that it’s “very hard to be ‘normal’ in Israel” and that’s the main advantage he could see in America, one could be frum and normal at the same time. (normal doesn’t mean bumming out on ben yehuda, that’s a reaction to being unnormal).
anyways, enough ranting. laters
January 17th, 2003 22:37
I’ve already given up trying to be “normal”. Now when people call me crazy I consider it a compliment. You do have to fit community standards but there should be room for *some* individuality! Surely there is even in Israel.
By the way, Snark, just so there is no doubt as to what the bochur meant, he also asked me if I had a boyfriend and how far I went with him.
January 18th, 2003 13:57
She, ignore me, I grew up in chabad my whole life, have never really strayed, and I still think women should be rabbi’s and not in the sissy my husband is a rebbe and so Im a rebbetzin because behind every great man is a great women kind of way either. BUT Im still kind of disgusted about the way these boys here act, they think every glance is a come on…. re: shimras comment about wearing pants and ppl thinking shes easy, if ap erson can’t judge you by the clothes that you wear and you feel its not a reflection of who you are.. neither does the black hat or the white shirt represent the moral and religious standings of that “yeshivish boy”. BTW coming from an environment of a “relglious” university to a non-jewish one, no matter how scandalized we are about ppl making out, its not even close to the mushugayis that is going on here…
January 18th, 2003 14:18
Also I read your comment about not having the privelage of having your highs and lows and it might be true like a ex-smoker who just wants ONE cigarette.. but I want to clarify what I said before. on one other hand I think its amazing that you have come this far. on the other imagine yourself in ten or fifteen years of such rigidity, I guess is the phrase for lack of a better word, do you think you will be the same person? A lot of these boys have been celibate etc not for 5.5 years or 10 but the last 25 so no, I dont think you should settle or should you ever go backwards in your religious beliefs I just think understanding goes a long way. I look at my brother who wasnt religious for a long time and I see that love and understanding on behalf of his lovely wife goes a long way in helping him readdress his issues and in bringing him back to the fold which includes wearing tzitzit and putting on tefillin every day which is something he never did before he met her but has kept up for two years now.. so who knows? Also I really think that maybe you should spend more time talking to these boys over the phone before you go out with them. You could have cleared up this issue most probably before you ever met him instead of jumping in head first and wasting your time. I also think even though you are dating for marriage a lot of these issue (Im not talking about shomer negiyah) doesnt have to be discussed on the first night. It should not have to always be so intense. I dont feel someone should have to spill thier guts so quickly esp if there is a chance that he’ll never ever see you again..
I read this great article in the newspaper about a scientific study they did to measure luck and why some people are “luckier” than others. They found that it wasnt luck but being open to thinks around you that made a person lucky. They set up a situation when they asked people who felt particularly lucky or unlucky to write in. They then chose a sample group and gave them newspapers to read. They told them to count the photos in the newspaper and who ever got the right amount would win something 100 dollars. However placed inside the newspaper were two large advertisements with writing 5 cm big. THe first one said STOP counting here, you have won 50 dollars. Then next one. later in the newspaper said stop counting, tell the researcher you have seen this advertisement and you will win 250 dollars, lets say.
They found that the majority of people who considered themselves unlucky completely missed the advertisements because they were so intent on counting the pictures and took much longer than the majority of people who considered themselves lucky who took a lot shorter time because they had seen the large and noticable ads. They concluded that people who are “unlucky” are often tense individuals who are unable to look outside the square and unoberservant and so often miss opportunities that give the “lucky” people thier luck. Anyway the point is that sometimes being open to things will bring you the very thing that you have been searching so hard for.
January 18th, 2003 19:46
Oh boy, what makes u think I can read such a long stories written English. Moreover, what makes u think I can write such a long things myself? Iâm an Israeli for Christâs sake.
So Iâm retreating to my old style. If some stranger asks u about your personal life, b-f and what were u doing with him, I think the right response is something like your hand flying to the direction of his cheek (unless u r a âshomer negiaâa, of course đ ). On the other hand, if u choose to answer, and his suggestion was prompted after your answer, I might change my plans and visit NY earlier…
Just joking. Thatâs what we call in Hebrew â âharama lâhanchataâ (tennis term) so I couldnât avoid it.
January 18th, 2003 19:53
Yeah đ sorry about the long post, but really, for christ’s sake? I would pick someone else a little more updated…arafat yemach shemo maybe?
January 18th, 2003 20:45
Nah, it’s not my site. I’m not the one to tell u not to write as long as u like (up to 53 characters).
What’s wrong with the Christ? I like classics. Classics r to be judged in terms of time… Arafat is too modern. Wait till he dies.
January 19th, 2003 01:54
Listen, I was too stunned to even react or compute the incident in my head till three hours later. I was feeling all kadosh and stuff from the shiva and feeling all guilty that I wish I was a tzadekes and as great as Rav Pam and bla bla bla. The last thing I expected was lewd conversation.
By the way I was dressed in a loooong skirt a shapeless top, socks and sneakers. When he asked me about the boyfriend, I said no. When he asked how far I went with any previous ones I didn’t answer. Sorry I’m not Israeli and can’t come up with some sharp nasty response on the spot.
January 19th, 2003 02:06
Sometimes ppl are just sick. Nothing to do with how you are dressed or anything that you did. They don’t need even the mildest glance from you to think something… BTW She said that the thing about Israel is that they are divided into extreme religious and extreme chiloni.its true but unlike other places in the world you have the in the middle of the dati leumi/bnei akiva, a group with solid values which you dont have in other places of the world..
January 19th, 2003 04:02
Gosh I’m tired…
I’ll answer all this tomorrow. Promise.
Behold.
January 19th, 2003 10:25
Look I last was in Israel 5 yrs ago in sem. I wish it hadn’t been that long but I’m broke and can barely afford a plane ride back to my mom. Anyhoo, my point (and I do have one) is I’ve found most Israelis to be very passionate, take no crap, tough, caring, real people. No matter what “group” they belong to. Of course there are always exceptions…like this girl I knew that was slapped by a Chassid in Meah Shearim for wearing a mini. Hmmmm
January 19th, 2003 12:04
hi folks,
umm… lemme pitch in my two cents: when we’re out there in the “real world”, a distinction is often made between romantic relationships – in which shomer negiah is kept – due to the obviously amorous nature of the “negiah” under such circumstances, and between other commonplace relationships, in which touching can be more readily countenanced, as it is no more lascivious in intent than two people shaking hands. It just happens that in western society social mores dictate that when a man and women meet out of the office, they exchange a peck on the cheek. There’s no more to it than when Collin Powell exchanges kisses with some Arab despot, for example. It’s utterly bereft of any sexual connotations. Now, this may not conform with stringent halachic norms, but then by logic handshakes between the sexes should be shunned too.
As someone who deems himself frum but lives in the professional world, I can tell you how things look from my vantage point: I am makpid on being shomer with girls I am dating, but on a social level I don’t cringe if a female acquaintace swoops in to give me a cheek-peck as a form of hi. It means nothing – it’s just the way she’s been conditioned to say hello to a guy, and there’s no point of making a big deal of it and stoping her in mid-swoop. That would just be construed as imputing to her benign gesture intentions that were never there to begin with.
I obviously have no idea if that was the case with your date, but maybe it should have been cleared up, as it seems like you were quite smitten with him up until the “incident”. A cheek peck is by no means a clear indication of “fooling around”. Your date may not have been up to your standards of hakpada – that’s fine, but let’s not make him out to be living some depraved, duplicitous, life, on account of what may have been an innocent social interaction with an acquaintance.
January 19th, 2003 19:35
jon jon, i liked your post. you used big words and just generally made alot of sense. all i can say is this – that although, to the secular person, a kiss on the cheek is a benign act with no sexual connotations whatsoever, to you, the frum jew, who realises that the mitzvos are there to sensitize us to everything, and to bring us close to an awareness of the beauty of things which MOST people take for granted – from this perspective, that “harmless” kiss is very harmful indeed. not because it means something – but because it has stopped meaning something. every time a woman shakes your hand, she is in effect destroying a layer of the sensitivity on you; the reason you dont “cringe” from it is probably because it happens so often that your reflex is not to move away but rather to let it be. this shows that the sensitivity is being worn down. rav shach, for example, even if he agreed and knew that it was a harmless, sexless, act, would have instinctively moved out of the way, because he has trained and sensitized himself to that point. thats what we are all striving for
January 19th, 2003 19:50
I must say I completely agree with every word.
January 20th, 2003 01:47
Jon Jon, I too agree with “she” and “me”, any contact even non-affectionate ones are not allowed. It is very unfortunate that it has become common practice for many frum people to shake peoples hands (with members of the opposite sex) bec. it’s actually assur. (How much more so for kissing) This is according to the ramban, rambam, the chazon ish, and every other great tzaddik. R’ Moshe Feinstien said in regard to this, that saying that you are touching “unaffectionately” is a very weak heter, and should not be used.
One last note (and I’m borrowing this line from s/o else, so I dont take credit):
“Not every touch leads to an act of immorality, but every act of immorality begins with a touch”
You can read more about this at :
http://www.frumteens.com/topic.php?topic_id=47&forum_id=9&topic_title=Shomer+Negiah&forum_title=Other&M=0&S=1
January 20th, 2003 05:07
Jelly Beans –
One has to be very careful when reading frumteens.com – many of the posts should be taken with a grain of salt. Case in point – your link:
“Rambam (Isurei Biah 21:1, and Commentary on Mishnayos Sanhedrin VII, 4) rules it is prohibited MIN HATORAH to touch a member of the opposite sex, even not in an affectionate way.”
Here’s what my Rambam Issurei Bi’ah 21:1 says:
“Anyone who has relations with one of those forbidden to him ‘derech eivarim’ (if you don’t know what that means, suffice it to say that it’s not referring to a handshake), or hugs or kisses in a LUSTFUL MANNER (‘derech ta’avah’) and gets PLEASURE from the nearness of flesh, that person gets lashes on a biblical level…”
(The Rambam in Peirush HaMishnayot is slightly different, but still mentions “in order to DERIVE PLEASURE”. In any case, Mishneh Torah is universally considered to be a more accurate and precise formulation of Rambam’s halachic stances.)
Maybe I’m missing something, but that certainly doesn’t sound like what the frumteens moderator was describing.
Don’t get me wrong – I’m entirely shomeir n’gi’ah, because I believe it’s inappropriate to have contact with the opposite sex (and in that context, I do like your “last note”). But the claim that such things are assurim min haTorah is at best inaccurate and, at worst, itself a possible issur min haTorah under the rubric of “bal tosif” (http://www.rjconline.org/hib89.htm).
January 20th, 2003 05:16
First of all I’d like to apologize to SHE for turning this into a whole debate… or whatever you want to call this coversation.
To GR– the frumteens thing was a side note… whatever I said was info. that I got from my own sources. i.e. my Rabbi, although I do recall reading in regard to rambam, and ramban, that one says that it is assur min hatorah, and the other says it is assur d’rabanan (I’m sorry I dont remember which correlates to which…) either way its not allowed. (and I’m sorry that I can’t quote it, but if you’d like I WILL look into it and explain better…) I don’t want to start a whole debate here, that wasn’t my intention.
While I am shomer negiah… I too have problems when it comes to handshakes, and coworkers etc…
I was just saying what I heard, each person should ask their own Rabbi what is allowed.
January 20th, 2003 05:28
Okay just to clear up about I wrote before my issue isnt shomer negiyah or not shmoer negiyah as much as it is deception and representing yourself to be someone who u clearly are not, as well as the validity a lot of orthodox communities and double standards give to this when it comes to thier boys.
In anycase I worry a lot more about the handshakes and business kisses more than I worry about hugging someone I love – it seems like wasted affection – not using it in the right place and right time for the right person. so even though I have had times were I was not perfectly shomer negiyah i.e. hugging a male friend (and thats my problem not an issue whether it is allowed or not)I had my standards.
Also I took a look at that frum teen board and the trouble is that often its the people who know the least are the people who are the most dangerous. THe moderators too are anonymous and so you must be careful what you take from there as you dont know thier background or education or haskafa.
January 20th, 2003 08:58
I honestly have no idea how people are shomer in longer relationships. Like for a year before they get engaged or whatever. But the real frummies get married after 2 weeks of dating and 2 months of engagement during which chatan and kalla barely see each other. The latter seems very inhuman but if you’re going to be shomer it’s so much easier. People that can really get to know each other, unlike frummies, and not touch each other, have an incredible amount of self control which I think is amazing. I am honestly in awe of such people.
I wish I can say I’ve been perfectly shomer but unfortunately I haven’t. I still get jealous at weddings where I know the couple is going to touch each other for the first time. The luscious “forbidden” exoticness of it all…and to think you have it only with your beloved. Just to get that, that specialness I think is very much worth it.
January 20th, 2003 10:24
I think my point was missed; I’m certainly not advocating for charedim to take up the conventions of the Modern Orthodox, but just pointing out the fact that maybe She was unwittingly dating a guy with a different outlook than hers. That doesn’t blunt the bummer of meeting someone you thought you clicked with, and then having it dawn on you that it’s not going to work out, but it’s still a far cry from casting aspertion on the guy’s character. Did he date She under false pretenses? Well then, he’s a schmuck. But otherwise, it may have been an honest misunderstanding of where each party stands in terms of observance.
I’m not going to cite sources right now to support the assertion that there is a strain in halacha which sees tzniut as standing in direct corrolation to prevailing social norms. Suffice it to say that there are ample sources and empirical examples which can be adduced for such an outlook.
And finally, I can’t agree that sensitizing oneself to every touch is something salutary. If you bring yourself to the point where shaking the hand of someone from the opposite sex turns you on, then – let me say it right out – you’ve got a problem. Likewise, when a society reaches a point where a man will not kiss his adopted daughter past a certain age, this is a society with deep problems that need to be addressed.
January 20th, 2003 11:58
Jelly Beans, everyone, I enjoy this debate, no need to apologise, though I try to keep quiet.
Its nice to know people care.
January 20th, 2003 12:04
Oh, and about the specific guy –
I make a long story short when I write this site. So, after that date we did speak on the phone, I did like him, I wanted to make sure I’m not throwing away something good just because of that incident.
Well, I was right. It wasnt just a one time incident, he was doing this regularly, goes out with secular girls and has some fun, being a shomer negia is something that is far from him, his views, his life.
Moreover, when I asked him whether this is a minhag he plans to quit once he gets married, I was stunned to hear him say no….not really. Maybe he wont *do* anything very very naughty with other girls, but he certainly wont become a shomer negia completely.
He likes living his life.
Who am I to ruin it?
January 20th, 2003 16:19
OH! I dont know if that’s just totally sad, or just plain sick… đ
(OH, and dont worry, school starts tomorow, so I wont be popping up on this site, every 15 seconds… :))
January 20th, 2003 16:39
No school! I dont let!
January 20th, 2003 17:08
Oh I love school! (Yup, I am a nerd) but it fools me into thinking that I have some kind of social life đ
Plus I love my field and what I do…
SO its really ok
BTW I’m coming to Israel for the summer!!! I’m so excited!!!!!
January 20th, 2003 18:06
Avoiding, preventing, ignoring, justifying, logicalizing…
Avoiding, because it’s RIGHT…
Shomer negia… Shomer eynaim, Shomer Shomer Shomer Shomer Shomer…
DON’T DO, DON’T DO, DON’T DON’T DON’T…
Personally I think the DOUBT is as clever a teacher as KNOWLEDGE and TRUTH are.
But anyway as long as you’re happy, it really doesn’t matter.
(Ironically the radio currently plays the corny song “FREEEEDOM… FREEEEDOM…”)
January 20th, 2003 18:31
beb, congrats, you’ve just posted the 500th (nd? st?) comment.
Look, you’re adorable and you’re my friend and you’re a Chiloni. And I do remember whats that like, when I was secular I considered *anything* that has to do with boundaries of any external source irritating and quite stupid, it seems as if the Chilonim actually like the doubt better than the knowledge, for they find a lot more, how to say this… “magic” in it. Thats what I used to think, anyway.
Its actually an important issue for those who try to live by Torah law, beb, as silly as you may find it to be.
And you and I need to discuss this “freedom” thing… But I guess I’ll be seeing you soon anyway, the regular yearly meeting? (The end of this month?)
Other than that, how’s Uni going?
January 20th, 2003 18:55
I got the 500th, wow, cool. It’s always so hard to click the POST button anyway. I feel stupidly shy. You, by the way, got the 42th for this story. You have something with that number, eh?
Now for the matter:
I have no problems with boundaries, on the contrary, I think we all need them. And high-school surely proved that you need them too đ
What I do think is that one should find his own boundaries rather than being told, and what’s much more important, I think these boundaries can and should change, quite a lot. We change, our lives change, situations change, why be so rough? A person can be flexible without losing control.
But, surely, surely, I don’t find any of this silly. Not at all. Any life style is good as far as I’m concerned. I’m just sharing my own opinion, maybe too emotionally. I don’t intend to actually change anyone.
P.S. Uni is good, pretty light. Some arts, some books, some yadayada. I can’t say it’s boring.
P.S.2 Looking forward to see you, though as I know myself, I tend to shut up in group meetings, so we actually talk much more through e-ways than we do when we meet đ
P.S.3 you call me chiloni, but I don’t feel that way, nor do I feel dati, and not even atheist. I believe in God in my own way, I believe in all kinds of stuff. Although my faith changes from time to time. I guess that like many others, I’m a bit crazy and a bit silly.
January 20th, 2003 23:24
beb, what you say about boundaries and not being told what they are rather making them for yourself… where do you know when to stop? to take a very extreme case, someone who enjoys hurting people for whatever reason-the power trip or whatever, where does he stop? murdering or torturing are within his boundaries, thats how he justifies his actions.
now to be fair, because you arent trying to change anyone, i have to clearly say that i am not trying to change anyone, in my experience it becomes a huge fight that isnt worth it. but with shomer negiah, although it isnt as extreme as the example i gave, it is a THING, whether people want it to be or not. maybe not a big thing-it isnt meant in a sexual way or anything-but as people said already-isnt that the problem?- that it isnt a problem any more…
January 21st, 2003 02:57
er.. high school proves nothing đ
I had boundaries back in high school, I think, um, yeah, I did, sort of, er.. look! theres a naked guy running around with bunny ears right behind you!
January 21st, 2003 04:05
ahh, so that’s what it takes to get She to notice you.
January 21st, 2003 07:06
Legal note: this post is not to encourage or prevent anyone to/from doing anythingâŚ
Iâm a simple guy, I am. Didnât learn much. I canât compete with u in quoting all the references. So Iâll go to the basics.
Just to make it clear â in my canonic edition of the bible, all is written is âvâel isha benidat dvota lo tikrav legalot ervaâ, it doesnât really matter if this kind of closeness or encounter is âkemikchol beshfoferetâ or not (forgive me for the plasticity, but itâs not me, u know). Going to the other extremity, Iâm sure that if some Rabbi will come today and say that we have to use different streets for guys and different streets for girls, thatâs human boundaries. Although it might keep us pure. Although âsaveâ our âsexual sensitivityâ. Same goes for separation of busses or supermarkets. We all live according HUMAN boundaries. And each of us must consider his own boundaries.
I must say I liked Shimra and Beb on this thread. They donât hide behind the shield of words, choosing the easy way of âwe were told by god what is right and were to put our boundariesâ. U might follow Rabbis but just keep in mind they are humans.
Now, as u all probably know, the thing that Israelis canât handle is âbeing a frayerâ. A frayer is a guy that is willing to pay more than the value of the good. Iâm paying a price for my religious (âdonât do this and donât do thatâ) but I will not be over charged. Iâm an Israeli.
And since I must fill the words quota in order to be qualified to post here (so it seems), it reminds me of the old story:
These chossid and misnoged were chatting.
-u know, my rebbe has a âmagidâ, says the chossid.
-and how do u know that? Did u see it?
-nope, the rebbe himself told me.
-and maybe, just maybe, the rebbe is lying?
-u really think it is possible that a liar will get a âmagidâ???
Word cound: 342. Chief editor, Am I in?
January 21st, 2003 12:28
Shosi, I mostly agree with you. Some people cannot define their own boundaries. But speaking of the majority, I believe that most of us can do that (excluding politicians, members of the army, and other people who believe they are SO important:)) – If they’re willing to be open enough to change and reshape their habbits when they see that some of those aren’t working too well.
About physical matters, what I feel is that hugging a friend I didn’t see for long (either male or female) feels good, and feels warm. And at least for me, it NEVER gets empty, or loses its meaning. I still highly value the basics of romance, sensitivity, and physical touch, when it’s right (for me…). I’m still a bit shy, and a bit silly.
I think it is all a matter of balance, and if you ask how you find the balance (or the boundaries, as you wrote), then I’ll tell you that my own way can be summed up in two words: Doubt and Experience.
Anyway it’s been a really nice conversation here. It helps understanding other perspectives, no matter what you believe yourself.
January 22nd, 2003 22:32
i think youre right. really.
its a pity about all those politicians, members of the army and other people who believe theyre so important though…:)
January 23rd, 2003 20:05
Wow, just got back from miluim and sat down to read what must be the longest thread on this site ever. I wanted to say thank you to all of you in on this insanity for reminding me that I’m not the only nut who bats this stuff around in my head.
Shoshi – we’re all important! đ /YS
January 23rd, 2003 23:22
no no ys… YOURE important!:)
good shabbos to everyone and she thanks for this site its tops.
January 24th, 2003 10:49
Since this is such a long thread I must have the last word. Thank you.
January 26th, 2003 04:23
I am close to 60 years old, a psychologist for 34 years and was looking for a shidduch for my daughter of 22. Looked in the wrong place. This site is sex by phone. You are all trying to work out your problems, as everyone must. Bur the snivling, snide forever-hurt attitudes I see expressed will make you either unmarriageable or miserable in your relationships. After marriage you folks better give just as much attention to keeping your partners in the relationships you had so much desire to enter, applying whatever abilities you have been granted. If your own needs are too deep and too narrow, you’ll never know what hit you.
January 26th, 2003 04:36
What – was – THAT?
January 26th, 2003 06:22
JLEV you got the wrong impression of this site. ITs a harmless site, that helps us to keep going through this tough ordeal called dating.
Dealing with it with humor, and what is wrong with that?
Our comments are just a chance to express opinions in an annoynomous way, and therefore can s/t’s be extreme…
January 26th, 2003 06:26
One more thing, as a psychotherapist in training, you obviously have years more experience than me, but my developmental stage in life gives me the advantage of better understanding these people in my age group. So what I see is a bunch of people who are having a good time, and relieving their anxiety, annoyance, hurt, that dating can cause, so they can lead happier and more productive lives.
Think of it as group therapy, because you know that just talking about it can help resolve the issue…
January 26th, 2003 11:46
Sex by phone?
Where?
Did I miss the party? is it over yet? â they never tell good old snark about the good stuffâŚ
Is your daughter still available?
January 26th, 2003 22:35
That was pretty rude of me. Too bad there is no ‘edit’ option (She?). Just ignore the daughter comment. Got carried away.
January 26th, 2003 22:44
Yeah yeah I can edit comments, I can delete them, everything. I feel so empowered.
For the future, if you BADLY regret anything, just email me.
I can make it all better.
January 26th, 2003 23:28
did anyone else notice how he spelled SNIVLING wrong??
i mean i dont mean to be PETTY around here like SOME people… lalalalalala… the phone sex was good, though, guys… thanks all around… some of the best darn sex i’ve ever had
January 27th, 2003 01:47
is jlev sure s/he has a daughter? last i learned in school, sex was a little different, phone or otherwise…
of course, what do i know. i’m just a miserable little girl whose needs are both deep and narrow. (and now i’m snide, too)
but i’m wondering. jlev – did you think this was a site where we post to find shidduchim? working off of that theory, i have to admit, snark, i would love to sit in a hotel lobby with you for a night.
and is it just me, or don’t you plenty of nasty ppl who have gotten married? why should *that* stop me?
i have to go contain my evil self and help my (married) mother make dinner for my (married) father.
January 27th, 2003 02:11
I’m still slightly stunned by the fact you got here while looking for a shidduch for your daughter on the web. I’m feeling quite unclear on this, but please, do feel free to browse around the other entries and see if there’s any chatan that suits her.
And I hope you do realise that till you mentioned the “Sex By Phone” remark no one was talking about sex so OPENLY, really, as we were trying to make a discussion rather than group sex. And for that, we salute you. I just love it how psychologists make everything so FREE and OPEN.
I’m getting a 60’s kind of vibe. Let The Sun Shine and all that.
January 27th, 2003 23:32
ahm, sit in a hotel lobby… not my kind of kick. When I visit Israel every1 will be able to find me having my Leffe at SlowMoshe (former posner), with Albert at Zigmond or with a pint of Guinness deep in Nachlat Shiva… habits are habits. Tradition obliges.
60’s are over She. Sorry to wake u up. Indeed, it was a splendid time back there…
January 28th, 2003 03:48
This thread needs to die in peace.
January 31st, 2003 10:10
Just one thing from this story bewilders me. Do all chicks put their make up on before their clothes? Or is it just you?
January 31st, 2003 10:16
Actually, another thing bewilders me…what kind of 60 year old doctor is looking for a shidduch for his daughter on the internet? Where do they live? Juno, Alaska? Poor girl…There were no more boys in the beis medrash so daddy’s looking on google.
February 1st, 2003 14:02
Make up before clothes .. pressed powder on a black top does not look good đ j/k..actually Ive never really thought about it..
February 2nd, 2003 07:02
It was a buttoned-down shirt, if you must know.
It’s nice to see you’ve noticed the details.
February 23rd, 2003 04:39
People do do tshuva. Presumably when he was in yeshiva with your friend’s husband, he was frummer, and for whatever reason he’s become somewhat more distant from frumkeit. If he’s basically a good person and you get along with him and he’s honest (and it was big of him to own up to his short-falls!), I think it’s worth considering again. Really.
There are so many factors which go into a good shidduch, and while frumkeit is a factor, it’s not necessarily a factor in the way you think it should be. That is, a seriousness about religion, a willingness to do honest self-evaluation, humility, . . . all of these things are the types of durable character traits that are really integral parts of people. Whether someone davens or learns as regularly as he should, or even is shomer negiah, these traits can overcome.
He knew you were frum. Presumably he was dating you with the idea of rising to -your- level. Maybe you’re right and he’s going to stay where he is with no changes to himself, but people are in a constant state of evolution and self-evaluation.
After one date with you, he couldn’t imagine doing tshuva and being as frum as possible, but that’s not necessarily the most meaningful standard. With more dates, I think that you would both be able to reevaluate the situation in a much more accurate way: he could see the advantages of being frummer, and you could both see whether you liked eachother.
I really really urge you to get in touch with this guy again (maybe through your friend) and give it a real shot.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but it’s best to marry a person, not a checklist of mitzvot.
I am also a BT and I spent a while shidduch dating, and one thing which really confused me was this aspect that you’re trying to find a person you’re compatible with and you’re also trying to find someone whose frumkeit matches up with yours.
The first task is hard enough — secular people certainly have lots of trouble with it, when religion isn’t such a factor. When you add the second factor, the question is what really constitutes frumkeit — it’s pashut that you can’t count on your bashert eating the same hekshers, but even counting on him being fully observant always throughout his whole life isn’t necessarily realistic. Maybe you’ve found him at a low point in his life, and maybe this is the lowest point he will ever be at?
(It also cannot be overemphasized how important it is that he was so honest with you.)
Finally, I have a personal story. I am in grad school in the same place I went to college. I went on two dates when I first came back from seminary with two different people. By coincidence, each time I saw my close (secular Jewish) friend’s boyfriend who gave me a perfunctory hug.
I see this guy no more than twice a year, and it’s never really been an opportune time to tell him that I’m shomeret negiah. I feel like that could potentially do far more harm to my friend’s view of Judaism than perfunctory hugs do to my neshama.
Also, on the topic of shmirat negiah, different communities have different standards: Germans and Dutch, e.g., have long had the custom of shaking hands with the opposite sex. Once I was at the rabbanut getting papers processed for aliya and one of the rabbis took me by the elbow while pointing me to a clerk. This is a sweet old Moroccan man, and his gesture was not lacivious (it was in the central office of the Jerusalem rabbanut, after all! in front of all these rabbanut rabbis!)
Best of luck.
March 11th, 2003 22:08
Men just screw things up completely
?? who are you to totaly discriminate against all men. some of us are fun. some of us are smart. some of us are responsible. okay, maybe just a handful of us. but you get the point.
I find male bashing mean and hurtful. I too have trouble finding my basheret, but from every shidduch I grow and mature myself. This guy was a fool and wrong for misleading you, besides men who live double lives never marry for life. he should be shot for his errors, but please.
on behalf of us “good” guys, stop male bashing. then maybe, just maybe, your basheret will come out of hiding.
April 9th, 2003 17:28
I read the story and sadly the same thing happened to me this weekend. I am from San Diego CA, and it appears this happens everywhere. The guy was normal, he payed for the bill. He was romantic, loving and very caring. Funny also. He even went to the extreme and told me he would call me. Now I call him. and wait. No return call. I know exactly how you feel. My feelings are with you..
July 6th, 2003 17:08
I just feel the need to thank all you people. You may not realize it but you are all amazing people. I came to look up about shomer negia and came out with a better understanding that i NEED a middle path. I naturally gravitate towards beni akiva no matter where I am in the world. The world overlooks the middle path and its what is really the best thing ever. I lean towards the right or left on some issues becuase I am definitly not a centerist. what I found here was some great thinkers which is what the world needs people who think for themselves whichis why I go left on some things and right on others. The shomer thing really hit me in a snag that I am now stuck in. I wish I had a community that i really liked. I have been very well blessed by hashem with finding the very worst in people which is becuase I also see the very best. I want everything at once and can’t settle. i should just end here before I go crazy that i dont have a commuinty or country(well israel of course) or city that i can trully call my own
July 7th, 2003 00:35
I’m glad you could join us virtually at least đ